The First Mark of Generosity

“There’s a real spirit of generosity out there. “
Bishop Mark on Churches and North East Foodbanks

I’m trying to understand what being generous actually means, and to identify the “marks of a generous church”? Are there certain things that generous people and generous churches hold dear? What’s the approach? So I’m interviewing people called Mark about generosity and church.

My first Mark of Generosity is called Mark Bryant. He’s the Bishop of Jarrow. I think he’s been looking forward to this interview since I first suggested it a mere 10 weeks ago. Yes, that’s how long it takes to secure a meeting with the Bishop of Jarrow. He’s a very busy man. But what does a busy bishop do and think and how did he get there in the first place? Before delving into generosity, I want to get to know Mark the person, priest and bishop.

Bishop, how did you end up as a priest? I grew up in a vicarage, my Dad was a vicar and he was doing pioneer ministry and church planting in the very early 1960s on a post-war housing estate. My Dad clearly enjoyed being a vicar. It gave him fulfilment. He clearly made a difference to people’s lives and I grew up thinking “Hey, I think I’d quite like to do that.” I’ve been ordained for 41 years and I can honestly say I’ve never regretted it.

And have you always wanted to wear purple and funny hats? No. No absolutely not. When I signed up what I really wanted to do was to be a parish priest, working in the community and the whole bishop thing, in a way, comes as a bit of a surprise. Suddenly you discover you’re going to be one.

Was it quite daunting? I remember that +Tom Wright phoned me up and he said, “I want you to come and work with me and be Bishop of Jarrow.” I clearly remember that my final words were “I think I need to go away and get my head around this!”

It’s very strange because when you’re training to be a vicar, you train for 3 years. You go through a big selection process with the diocese. But when you become a bishop, somebody rings you up, and in 3 or 4 months you’re a bishop. So it’s quite strange.

Bishop, I’ve never seen you outside of a work context. What do you wear at home? Are you a onesie and slippers man or do you always wear your collar, just in case? I absolutely do not always wear my dog collar. It depends what I’m doing. If I’m doing nothing I just wear a hoodie and jeans.

I can’t imagine that bishop! I’m often in my hoodie. I was recently given a new one from the Children’s Council. I have a very old threadbare hoodie that I’ve had forever and it’s much loved and makes me feel very warm and secure. I always wear it when I’m on retreat.

What’s the best thing about being a bishop? Every day is different and you get to meet the most extraordinary people. Both people who have big responsibilities, and also people for whom life is just rather complicated. You never know who you’re going to meet each day. I could be talking on the same day to the Lord Lieutenant- the Queen’s representative in the area- then talking to somebody who’s in recovery from drink and drugs.

You’re about to be marooned on a desert island and you can pack 3 books, what are they? (The Bible is a given) Would I need anything else? I might take the diaries of an American monk called Thomas Merton who’s been quite a big influence on me. It would be good to get to know more about him.

You can take three characters from the Bible. Who would you take with you and why? Does that include Jesus? Yes. Yes, ok it’d be quite good to take Jesus! I’d like to take Mary. The more I think about Mary the more intrigued I am. What she goes through, first of all a) you’re going to have a baby and it isn’t through the man you’re going to marry. Then b) like all mums, having to let go of him, and let him do his stuff, which she might not always be quite sure is very wise. Then c) just that complete desolating moment at the end when she meets him on the journey to Calvary… No mother ought to have to go through that. And yet we know many, many mothers in all sorts of different countries and contexts go through something very similar.

There’s a pause and the weight of what Bishop Mark has just said seems to hang in the room. Being a priest, I suppose he has had to comfort many parents who have lost their children. After a time his face lights up. He’s thought of a third.

Zacchaeus. Because I really want to know what the conversation was when Jesus went to have tea with him. It was clearly an extraordinary conversation for it to change Zacchaeus’ life, but the Bible doesn’t tell us what happened. I want to ask “What did you say to him? What happened?”

Generosity then Bishop. When you were growing up, what was your family’s approach to charitable giving? I know they took it seriously but they didn’t talk about it. My father was one of the first people to talk from the pulpit about Christian stewardship as we understand it today. Meaning, what you put on the plate needs to be generous and realistic. Not just sort of a nominal coin. He was ahead of his time. He took charitable giving very seriously and I suspect most of what they gave went to the church.

Where do you see generosity in our churches? We’ve had foodbanks right across the North East now for about 4 or 5 years and I understand last Christmas in Gateshead, we had the most generous collections ever, and I think this is extraordinary. Because people will tell you they get compassion fatigue, but there is no evidence of this here. This is just extraordinary generosity right across the community. In fact Gateshead had to call in extra volunteers just to sort out all the stuff that came into the warehouse over Christmas. There’s a real spirit of generosity out there.

Have any other stories really touched you? One woman I knew was a lone parent with 3 kids and was on benefits. She talked to me about becoming a Christian and about giving. The way she did it might not have been entirely conventional, but she went to the post office, as you did in those days to get your benefits, and she took a tenth of her benefits income, and she put it to the back of her purse and she said to God “If that’s still there on Sunday, you get it.” And every Sunday it was still there and God got it. And I thought, you know, here’s a woman for whom life’s really, really complicated and with really limited money and she believes her faith requires her to do that. And God honoured and blessed that.

Why do you think clergy dislike preaching about giving generously? I think in our culture we’re embarrassed of talking about money. I think we know we may be making some people in the congregation feel uncomfortable. And most vicars don’t like making people feel uncomfortable because, like most humans, we want to be loved. We know people may not always receive it very positively. Whatever you say can be interpreted very differently.

I think what we have to do when we talk about money is to give people a vision, and to say “we want you to support this”.

In my last job in Coventry there were two Archdeaconries; one which was inner city and tough, and the other that was more affluent. The richer one was heavily subsidising the one in the north. From time to time I’d go and tell stories of the challenging things happening in some of the other communities. Once people heard these stories they understood the need better and they gave more.

In our diocese, we have to talk about the way in which we enable there to be clergy in all communities. We are the only profession who are living and working 24 hours a day in the most challenging areas in our country. And I think that’s something we should be really, really proud of, and should want to support. We need to give a vision and tell stories and share what’s really exciting and ask “Don’t you want to be part of this?”

Do you have an example of how they work in communities? Some months back I was in a place and I had a man in tears after a confirmation telling me how the confirmation classes had completely changed and transformed his life. And that happened because we had a really good parish priest in that community, which couldn’t begin to imagine paying for a vicar’s stipend. People for whom life is really difficult are being supported and that can only happen when other people are generous with what they give. This was in East Durham.

What do you find easiest to give? Your time, your skills or your money? I find that question really difficult. Looking back there are times in my life when I’ve found it difficult to give up my money. I’ve always been committed to giving generously but I know that my money, if I’m not careful, provides me with a security, and I feel I need to hold on to that security. Talents are easy to give generously of because you enjoy what you’re doing. Time is pressured, I’d love to be able to give more of it. I think I’m getting better at it.

A generosity of time if you’re a priest may be about giving somebody a lot of your time because they need it. Being present, being with them, not worrying about all the other pressures. Recently in the papers they said in our country half a million people over the age of 60 spend each day alone with absolutely no contact with anyone. And they say half a million more don’t see or speak to anyone for five days in a row each week. There’s clearly a real call to be generous with our time for those who need it most. For clergy that may be about giving time to people who need it.

What would you do if you won the lottery? I really hope I don’t because it would be a complete and utter nightmare. I can think of one or two charities I’d be very pleased to write cheques out to. I’m really interested in the area of youth homelessness. I’m quite involved with Depaul UK youth homeless charity. (Bishop Mark is wearing the charity’s pin on his jacket) They do incredible work. They have incredible staff. If I won the lottery they could expect a decent cheque from me. I know and trust them and I know they’d make the best use of it.

What’s your favourite Bible passage relating to generosity? Probably the story of the prodigal son. I think it’s really the story of the generous father. I think that it is just lovely. The dad has been so hurt and so messed around and it’s not just that he welcomes the lad back but he is outrageous in his generosity. Giving him the clothes, the jewels, the party. The significant thing about it is that it symbolises a real welcome. An extraordinary story of generosity.

OK finally let’s do a Quick Fire round. Just go with your gut instinct.

1. Hands in the air or Book of Common Prayer? Book of Common Prayer
2. Who suits a mitre best, you or +Paul? Bishop Paul
3. Beer or wine? Wine
4. Flowers or chocolate? Flowers
5. Spring or Autumn? Autumn
6. Radio 4 or Radio 2? Radio 4
7. Strictly Come Dancing or Bake Off? Bake Off
8. 4 days in Ikea or 4 hours with Donald Trump? 4 Days in Ikea
9. Batman or Spiderman? Batman
10. Twitter or Facebook? Twitter
11. Camping or glamping? Camping
12. The Magpies or the Black Cats? Pass

It’s time for me to leave and head back to Durham. Bishop Mark’s perspective has given me much food for thought and I’m grateful for his openness and candid answers (apart from the football question). He’s clearly a person who gives generosity a lot of thought. As I’m gathering my bits and bobs and he’s helping me on with my coat, I have one final question:

Bishop, how do we become more generous human beings? For me this is not simply about how much money I put on the plate or how much time I give. It’s about seeing the world with the eyes of God. Because God, like the father in The Prodigal Son, always looks at the world with generous eye. For me it’s a spiritual challenge. How do I become more of the sort of human being God wants me to be? That’s my Christian perspective. When Jesus talks about us being born again, being a new creature, a new creation it’s how I become the sort of person for whom generosity is part of my DNA.

And what better way to end the interview?

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Meet the Team

The Founder:

Name-    Rachael Phillips
Job-         Generous Giving Project Officer
Home-    Born and raised in Darlington. Studied at Teesside University and Durham University (so I’m a proper northerner).
Faith-      Fairly new Christian. My conversion happened in Afghanistan.
Credentials-   Before this job I spent 13 years serving in the British Army, as a Royal Engineers Officer, but most of my career was in non-engineering roles. In Afghanistan, Bosnia, Denmark, Austria and the UK, I was mostly employed in community support type roles (short video). I’m also a linguist… (start this video at 2mins 32 secs)

I love to chat, and luckily in the Army I got the chance to do lots of it. Talking with and listening to the ordinary people who lived near the military bases in which I’ve served, was part of my job. I’ve acted as a mediator, negotiator, sign poster, meetings organiser, project planner, bridge builder -metaphorically and literally- communications facilitator and even interpreter (I speak Pashto, Bosnian/ Croatian/ Serbian/ Montenegrin, French, German and Spanish).

Faith-wise, it’s all rather new. I had no interest in or even belief in God when I became an adult, despite having been baptised and taken to Sunday School as a child. So it was a surprise to meet God in Afghanistan and to become a Christian there.

Even though for most of my adult life, I’d lived in religious communities abroad, and had been surrounded by faithful Muslims, living out their religion in all aspects of their daily routine, I was never inspired to question who God might be to me, until a completely out of the blue experience in a shipping container in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. That story is here. You can read what I’ve written about being new to faith, the church and trying to understand my calling on my personal blog here, but suffice to say, having my eyes opened to the wonder of God…well it was a bit of a shock!

My faith has grown daily since that experience, and later, on the night when I came to be confirmed, I felt I heard clearly that God was calling me to something specific. Since then I have been exploring if this might be Ordained Ministry. To try and work this out, I left my job in the Army and returned home to the North East to study theology at Cranmer Hall, Durham University, for a year, alongside people who are training to be ordained ministers. And then I got this job, which puts me right in at the deep end, exactly where I like to be!

I hope to bring all that I’ve experienced and learned to this role (making the most of my project management and people skills, but not really drawing too much from my combat skills!), to encourage and inspire my fellow Christians in the Diocese. I am learning more about the Church and God every single day and am very excited to be doing this whilst serving you, and You.

Rachael continues to serve the Diocese of Durham in a new capacity as Mission Support Partner

The Editor

Name-    Reverend Tom Brazier
Job-         Rector of Greenside Parish
Home-    Speaks with a South African accent but is British by birth. Eats both biltong and corned beef hash.
Faith-      Ordained Minister so lots of faith.
Credentials-  Writing about anything related to Christian faith can be a real minefield because Christians hold so many different views. The author of these articles is still a fairly new Christian and mistakes can easily be made. [Ed: just the odd little one here and there – but my lips are sealed.] Rev. Tom Brazier was brought on board to check that the first article was theologically sound and heresy free and we haven’t been able to get rid of him since. [Ed: reword last phrase, please.] Tom was also part of the conception of the Generous Giving Project, which differs quite significantly from a traditional stewardship advisor’s role…

Being the editor gives Tom free reign [Ed: “free rein”] to be a huge grammar pedant [Ed: it’s not just grammar, I’m more of a jack-of-all-trades pedant], a character trait that is suppressed in ordinary pastoral life. Tom enjoys the challenge of receiving the unpolished musings of his protégé, and carefully deleting bits and suggesting amendments so as to craft them into palatable articles for the wider audience.

Tom is passionate about church giving because, he says, “giving is so closely linked to spiritual health and I love to see churches flourishing.” He also loves the idea of being part of something much bigger than ourselves and bigger than our local church.

Tom was ordained in 2012 after training at Cranmer Hall, and served his curacy at Holy Trinity Washington. Before Tom wore a dog collar he had a very different life. He grew up in South Africa, and after studying science at university, he worked as a software engineer developing training simulators to help train the cavalry to operate tanks. [Ed: which swords I now would like to see repurposed as ploughshares. We also developed simulators for gigantic mining vehicles.]

After marrying Julie, the pair decided to take a few years out and to do some travelling, before returning home and getting on with their lives, but this short trip to Europe turned into a much longer trip indeed. Tom got a series of jobs working in London for a failing dotcom company, a not-failing investment bank and a motion picture special effects company. Using his extensive analytical skills honed in the simulator development industry, Tom lived and worked in London for 9 years, worshipping at St Simon’s in Shepherd’s Bush before the calling to ordained ministry became one he couldn’t ignore. [Ed: good word “honed” – make a note to use it again somewhere.]

Whilst training in Durham, he fell in love with the North East and decided to stay, which is just as well, as otherwise the communities of Greenside Parish would be without their vicar and the Generous Giving Project would churn out all kinds of nonsense. [Ed: again, my lips are sealed.]

His personal blog is here.

Finances Resources Co-ordinator

A few of months ago, a great thing happened. Samantha Lee joined forces with the Generous Giving Project to make up 2/3 of this three person team (our third and final member will be introduced next). Samantha is the Finance Resources Co-ordinator, and we’ll start by finding out what that’s about.

Sam, in a nutshell, what’s your job? I’m here to support local churches and treasurers to better manage their finances. If a treasurer has a question or problem, they can contact me and we’ll work through a solution. If a new treasurer needs help, or a church is hoping to encourage someone inexperienced to take on that role, I can help make it really simple and clear. And I’m also supporting treasurers by rolling out the Parish Giving Scheme, which helps churches with their cash-flow and brings us into the 21^st Century with how we manage our giving.

You seem to know a lot about treasurers. Is this a particular interest of yours? Well, I am one! I’ve been serving my local church in this diocese as a treasurer for 3 years so I know the job inside out. I know what a difference treasurers make to the church and honestly feel blessed to do it.

It sounds like you’ll be able to easily empathise with treasurers “at the coal face”. I know as well as any treasurer, that sometimes the reality of church administration and finance roles can be demanding. Everyone assumes you’re the expert and it’s not always the case! Plus I’m a local girl so I understand church-life in the North East.

What’s the best thing about being a church treasurer? I like the fact I’m part of an on-going story, dating back literally thousands of years. Our generation benefits from the generosity and commitment of previous generations in ‘keeping the faith’ in ensuring a Christian presence in our local communities. And I’m part of this generation taking the church forward. It’s something that we continue to give thanks for.

I’ve not known you long, but long enough to know you love a spreadsheet. Would you say admin is your thing? Yes! I actually think being good at administration is a God-given gift. I see it as my spiritual gift. It’s what I bring to the church. And that’s really important.

Administration is key within every church to turn God-given vision into reality.

Go on… Well in Acts 6, the early church leaders decided that practical help was needed so that the church could serve God properly. Seven people were appointed to focus on administration, whilst others focussed on other areas of ministry, like prayer and preaching. Good administration and handling the books is what enables visionary leaders’ big ideas to be put into practice.

So it’s part of stewardship? Absolutely. Not just so we have cash-flow, but also being efficient in our administration is key to ensuring our time is spent well too. We need to be good stewards of our time just as much as our money.

Have you always been into administration? Is this a theme in your work-life? I’d say so. Before I worked for Durham Diocese I was an internal auditor. I provided business consultancy services and assurance for a range of third sector (not-for-profit) organisations.

What did you like about being an auditor? As an auditor, you’re a fresh pair of eyes. You’ve got an independent view on things. I liked being able to spot efficiency savings when organisations were bogged down in the day to day. I could make a difference. I’m naturally resourceful and I like problem solving. Oh and I’m pretty hardworking. I get very focussed on the task in hand until it’s sorted.

Thanks, Sam. I’m delighted we’re working together, and you can make sense of all the statistics and spreadsheets and numbers that sit just beyond my comfort zone. You’re a massive asset to the team.

Parish Giving Champion

Nathan, you’re not from these parts are you? Can you share with our readers where you’re from and what drew you to the wonderful north? Are you sitting comfortably?! I was actually born in the South East, but then I spent the first three years of my life in India with my missionary parents. We returned to the UK in the mid-1980s and I spent my entire childhood and teenage years attending a vibrant Pentecostal Church on the outskirts of South East London.

Wow, you’ll have to tell us more about your missionary parents some time. So after school what did you do? I spent three years at Bible College, and graduated with a degree in Theology. After that my wife and I moved back to the South East and became Youth Pastors in our home church for three years until God led us to move north in 2006 to plant a church in Middlesborough.

Not your typical start to Christian life then. Planting a church must have been such an experience. It was, but after seven years of hard work leading that church we felt it was the right time to hand it over to another couple to lead, and we and moved even further north to Gateshead. Up there we play a key role in our local church, Hillsong Church, Newcastle.

So you’ve got lots of experience of the challenges of growing churches and working with local communities. Very handy. Have you ever worked outside the church? I have indeed. Before taking this job with Durham Diocese, I worked for the North East Autism Society in their new Employment Futures service. I was helping people on the autistic spectrum to find employment or meaningful work experience.

Do you think you’ll be able to use these experiences too? Absolutely. I see my role here as being largely defined by the needs of each Parish I have the opportunity to work with, so definitely using my listening skills and hands-on community work. I’ll be listening to their needs and goals and we’ll work on a plan together. It’ll be tailored support for each church. For some it may be that my input at a PCC level that’s required. Others may need assistance with planning a medium-term Stewardship campaign. I’ve also done a lot of public speaking so I’d like to use these skills too.

What are you most looking forward to in your role as Parish Giving Champion? Well there’s one thing I’m really passionate about, and that’s helping people to have financial freedom. I want to help churches to provide avenues to financial freedom and for individuals to be released from debt. I want churches to not just focus on what they get on the Offering Plate, but to look beyond at the things that may be holding people back. Personal debt is a big problem and I think the church can really help with that. I’d like to support more of our churches in hosting courses on financial freedom.

It sounds like you’ll be out and about a lot. I hope so! I am not a big fan of office-based work so I’m keen to get around and help as many Parishes as possible in a focussed and intentional way. A big part of how I will measure my own success will be based on how much time I’m not at Cuthbert House!

If you’d like to contact Nathan and find out about the interesting and diverse ways he could support your church please email him at nathan.bruce@durham.anglican.org